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Boses to easy?
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Saito
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Posts: 119
Joined: 05/20/2004
Credibility: 1075 pts
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This is just a thought I had running through my head after playing the game some more.
The bosses in Doom3 require a trick to beat them, or have one trick that turns them into a pansy. Despite the danger all lies in the raw damage they can deal, because they seem to go down like punks.
Gaurdian, he’s big, he’s bad and hey smash you silly incredibly fast. You can only beat him by first killing the searchers, and then fraging orb up above him. What I think most don’t realize is that in hell, you don’t run out of stamina, you can’t sprint all over the place at top speed. Also auto weapons aren’t very good for the searchers as they get out of the way after the first hit or so, nail the searchers with rockets.
Saboth. Yeah I know just shoot him. But I am certain his own BFG cores hurt him, because he went down fast like a punk when I went rounds with him, and I didn’t hit him with much at all.
Cyber Demon. Ok this is the top guy, and you can only kill him with the soul cube. I personally would have wanted it to be old school where it drained almost your entire arsenal to take him down, but I guess a fancy trick works and makes him special. However the demons you have to kill to fill up the cube are runts.
So yeah I am smart-ass, so of course I am going to called on the fabled “ok smart-ass what would you fix” well here goes.
Gaurdian. I do like the idea of having to take down the seekers to hurt him, that’s cool keep that. However don’t make the dude blind without them. With unlimited sprint and his inability to find you, it’s fairly easy to stay well enough out of his grasp. His strength doesn’t mean much since he won’t land many hits on you.
Saboth. Simple fix, nerf/take away the damage his BFG does to him. The idea of having to shoot his shots for your safety is great, and this bost is fast and agile. Sadly the twist you need to stay alive seems to just blow him up off the bat. Fix it and let us pelt him with lead while stopping the BFG.
Cyber Demon, ok I will admit this one is hard. First off stop tricking in little pansy demons at a slow rate. Throw them out at a fast speed, this causes distraction and cuts down on your chances to sprint away from the big boss. However this raises the issue that you can charge the soul cube up real fast with better guns, simple up the amount of hits it takes to drop the Cyber Demon. Also don’t just give us low level demons, those are easy. Throw in some of the larger demons, Hell knights, Archviles, Revenants, you know something that’s scary. The demons they make you fight now are to weak, and don’t deal enough damage to really worry you.
Of course this is all my opinion, but I would love it.
And I did cover spider woman because she is supposed to be simple.
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CPU P4EE Gallitan core socket 478 @ 4.2ghz, Abit IC7-G Max 3, 2 gb PC4000 corsair xms, PC Power and cooling 510 psu, Albatron 6800gt @ ultra, Creative Audigy 2 ZS, Cooler master wave master case, Switech Liquid Cooling, Dual NEC 22 inch CRT, Klipch Pro Media 5.1, Senn HD280 pro, MS 3.0, Steel S&S, logitech elite.
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| 08/12/04 01:14 |
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Nogame
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Posts: 55
Joined: 07/04/2004
Credibility: 951 pts
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Good topic!
I hadn't noticed that Sarge's BFG hurt him, but I only fought him twice. What I did notice is that depending on where he is in the arena, the floor panels change, so it is more of a pain then just staying close bye. It would be nice if he had some way of keeping you out of the center and you'd be forced to be a little more mobile while under his annoying BFG blasts.
The Cyberdemon fight is a little too easy. I agree with the harder monsters. While I'd go against Archviles, Cacodemons, Hellknights, Pinkys and Revenants would be welcome. They stock you up really well before the fight so you may as well have something to shoot at.
Vagary's difficulty is alright. The plasma gun is the only thing that makes the fight too quick, and the first time around you usually don't find that without a tip that its there. Due to the confined space and the size of Vagary it can get a little rough, which is good.
I really liked the Guardian, and even his blindness, but he's a lil too slow. Speed that bad boy up so when the Seekers see you, you have a real problem on your hands.
Mason 'Nogame' Ambrose
http://www.gameamp.com
http://www.gameamp.com/Nogame
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| 08/12/04 04:48 |
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warriordude
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Joined: 12/11/2004
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Good comments here, Saito and Nogame. To be fair I think that ID/Activision had some nice variations on the Doom3 bosses, though overall ID could do better with its Boss design-- probably not its strength, in comparison to other game companies.
Just my comments on each of the Doom3 bosses as far as the challenge level (Boss art and hideout design are very impressive in each case):
Vagary (Massive Spider Boss): I think Nogame had the right idea here-- she's pretty easy if you have the Plasma Gun but since you probably won't find it w/o a Walkthrough, she can be pretty challenging if you've got just the Chaingun at this point. Standard circle strafe technique will take her down, and though she's large and relatively quick (in a not-so-big room) I didn't find it too difficult to keep a respectful distance. But since there are no pillars to strafe around, and since she can wield objects very rapidly with that telekinetic technique you can easily get a few bruises in this fight. Again, if you want a challenge here the key is to not use the Plasmagun-- that makes it a laugher, since she's a sitting duck for the plasma splash damage. Use no more than grenades/chaingun, and you can genuinely test your skills. No argument here with Boss design or the Boss chamber-- ID/Activision were outstanding here. Showing the ominous large window shot with the webs just before entering the room, especially the scene with the other Marines BFG-zapping the trites, was a nice prelude to the fight.
Guardian (massive pig-like dude guarding the Soulcube): Very cool boss in many ways. Berserker-like fighting style with the bull charge and the circumference plasma projectiles was awesome, and the use of the Seekers was inspired and innovative on ID/Activision's part. The fight zone was outstanding IMHO, sorta like a Roman gladiatorial arena full of shadows and stone obelisks and structures to hide around-- adds an interesting level to it above the simple circle-strafe design in Vagary's hideout. To improve-- no need to limit stamina here (unlimited stamina makes it more of a dogfight), but can get similar mileage out of making the Guardian a bit faster in his charge once the seekers spot the Marine. Or-- have the Guardian accompanied by a couple Pinky bulls (who also have that sort of Charge attack), and maybe make the Guardian himself vulnerable to direct hits, with that orb summoned to give him some extra health (but also making him vulnerable to a rocket/BFG blast at the Orb). These would add layers of complexity to the fight and, considering the deadline pressure ID's programmers and level designers were under to finish things up for Doom3, it would have required a few more all-nighters to write the necessary code; but they would have transformed a very good and tough Guardian boss into a fantastic one.
Cyberdemon (Big Boss at Primary Excavation Site-- skipping Sarge/Sabaoth for now, will return to him): Challenging but not too difficult if you use the right technique. A fairly good skills test since you need 4 Soulcube hits to take him out, and it can be tricky to take out the demons around the Hellgate while evading the Cyberdemon missile blasts. Rockets make it easy but you have to keep a distance to avoid recoil blast damage (which can put you in range of Cyberdemon missiles), and BFG obviously works but your ammo probably won't be too high here. Thus a solid test of small-arms fire skills in constant motion. I agree with Saito and Nogame here that the demons crawling out of the Hellgate in the Hellhole should be mixed up a bit-- too many chumps in current version. A Hell Knight or Archvile once every 10-15 demons would be OK, anymore than that and it would be annoying. It wouldn't be too tough b/c you could still strafe around them and hide behind the stone tablets, but too many of them would distract from the Cyberdemon battle too much. I agree, Pinkies and Revenants would be perfect here-- those damn heat-seeking missiles from the Revenants, alongside the tank-killer missiles of the Cyberdemon, would be a nice touch and boost difficulty a lot. Cacodemons would also IMHO be a nice addition-- they're not too tough, but their lingering the air and ball lightning would introduce enough of a distraction to ratchet up the challenge. The best additions IMHO would be a couple Whip Commandos or Chaingunner Commandos who maybe popped out of the cave once in a while. Those two dudes gave me more trouble than any other adversary in Doom3, especially the way the Whip Commandos charge at you on steroids like that and almost inevitably find a way to pummel you a bit. You couldn't have too many of these dudes or the fight would be too tough for anyone but the Doom experts, but having a Whip or Chaingun commando appear occasionally from the cave entrance used by the Marine-- that would definitely take the Cyberdemon battle up a notch.
Sarge (or Sabaoth, the half-human/half-tank boss at the CPU center): This guy IMHO was the toughest boss in Doom3, in fact the single toughest fight I faced at any point in any of the levels. It took me about 25-30 attempts to beat the Sarge even using the Soulcube and doing a Quicksave afterward, which was about an order of magnitude more than what was required anywhere else. I was by no means a Doom master when I started up Doom3 (my Deathmatch record is scarcely above .500, and I don't even play against the real experts), and I couldn't tell initially if it was just something about my own techniques; we've probably all had the experience in e.g. tennis or Doom or Quake Deathmatching when there's some other guy (usually a European for whatever reason, in my own experience) who matches up well against you and consistently kicks your ass. But some other posters have also mentioned some particular difficulty with Sarge, so at least it wasn't just my technique. The Sarge battle is especially tough IMHO b/c you're in a very confined interior room (nice claustrophobic effect) and you really can't hide against Sarge's attacks. If you go anywhere near those pillars you'll either fall into the lava pits or get grilled like a steak when they electrify, so at pretty much every point you're vulnerable to Sarge's attacks and you have very little margin for error. If you get even slightly close to Sarge he'll maul you with that claw (which is tough to avoid and takes off a ridiculous amount of health and armor-- you're gonna need all 3 of those health packs in that side room), and those BFG blasts are insanely tough to neutralize. The rockets are good against Sarge but they'll recoil-blast you if try to use them against a BFG pulse, and it's easy to miss the pulse; plasma and chaingun are good but it's tough to get in enough shots to neutralize the pulse, and if just one of those damn things detonates you're fried like a pepper on a skewer. The shotgun's best for neutralizing the BFG pulses, but you can't use it well against Sarge unless you run up close, but then he'll trot out that nasty claw and rip you a new asshole. So you have to switch around the weapons a lot, but almost inevitably you'll be a second behind one of the BFG pulses and you'll get roasted. Ugh. FWIW I don't think that Sarge is getting hit by his own BFG pulses; his hit tolerance is something like 1750, which isn't too high. I dunno, Sarge was awfully tough for me, but I did start to figure him out after getting pummeled about 20 times by him, and I guess his difficulty level could be raised even a few further notches by e.g. boosting up his hit tolerance to about 2,500 or so, and also equipping him with more weapons-- shotguns, chainguns, plasma and having a bona fide dogfight. Sarge is, after all, a marine sergeant, and it'd be cool to have a sort of marine-marine grudge match, with the not-so-slight twist that one of the Marines has metamorphosed into a half-human/half-tank chimera.
I guess in summary, I'd say the Doom3 bosses are very good, not quite at the level of excellent or spectacular. The Bosses in some ways make the game, and Doom3 is a massive improvement in the Boss division compared to many of Id's earlier games. Recall the incredible lameness of Shub-Niggurath in Quake, a boss who just sat there and was taken out with a mere telefrag. Even worse was the utter disaster of the Destroyer in that Zerstorer mod for Quake, since the programmers for that Mod didn't even set the game up to fight the Destroyer-- a thoroughly lame and lousy aspect of the Mod. (Yes, that was kinda/sorta consistent with the lame story the Zerstorer programmers wrote for the Mod, but even then only weakly so-- there were lots of cool things those guys could've done with a Destroyer fight, and instead they got lazy and copped out. The story for ID's graphics-intensive games is important, but always subsidiary to the gameplay, and it's important to at least allow the fight to take place.) The best bosses in ID games so far have been IMHO the Ubernazi in Castle Wolfenstein, the Cyberdemon in the original Doom series, Nehahra (which was in a Quake mod ironically), some of the Quake II baddies, and the nasty SOB's in Return to Castle Wolfenstein (which is still my favorite ID product so far).
A few tweaks on the Doom3 bosses would help, but I think the Doom series (which is basically ID's franchise product, after all) would be much enhanced with one or two "meta-bosses" whose design and challenge are at a distinct level, like the Super-Nazi in the original Castle Wolfenstein, the dude who chases you throughout the level. That would be inspired, to have an entire large level devoted to the fight against a Big Nasty-- the battle against Uber-Nazi in CW scared the pants off of even experienced gamers b/c of the freakishness factor of being chased by this seemingly invulnerable, invincible opponent all over the place, not knowing when he'd turn up suddenly and open up a can of whoop-ass. IMHO ID should have a separate "Boss division" with the programmers and artists working specifically on the Bosses; each Boss is a programming project with a specially designed AI and a level designed to make the Boss even tougher and, alternatively, to give clues about fighting the Boss. If I were an ID level designer (or had the time to work on my own Mod :( ), I'd design a "Doppelganger boss," basically a Deathmatch-like dude-- a Marine demonified like Sarge in Doom3, with similar agility and abilities as, say, a Doom Master you might face in a Deathmatch, able to grab health and armor and zap the sh-- out of you with his own plasma, rockets, and BFG. There's only so much you can do with the AI but the fact that it is AI means you can also add some tweaks that a Deathmatch adversary wouldn't have, e.g. some special weapons and damage recovery capabilities to take the fight up a notch.
It's really only the Bosses-- who are already pretty good and tough-- that may need some tweakage in Doom3. Level design and art are fine, and plot and story are excellent. A few people were carping about this on the newsgroups but I have no complaints-- ID got smart by teaming up with Activision, and Doomn3's story is clever and intelligently assembled, almost as good as RTCW. I've done professional writing before and the plot in Doom3 is laid out exactly as you're supposed to-- slowly dropping clues with PDA's and whispered voices, telecom transmissions and conversations with confused base members, until the truth is revealed at the later stages in the Monorail, Delta, and CPU levels, with the artifacts and demon tissue samples figuring so prominently. Having the Hellspawn essentially be a rival civilization against the Quake-like ancient society on Mars was inspired, and introducing those twists and semi-legendary tweaks on the story, having the proto-zombies babble in Aramaic, providing a zoology of the Imp, Hellknight, and Revenant in the Delta Labs, the tablets in Site3, plus all that awesome background provided by Ian McCormick-- it was truly a professional story wrapped into the game, with all the added features made possible by the interactivity of it. I give Doom3 an 8.8/10 rating-- with the caveat that I'm far from a regular or experienced gamer so I probably don't have the best basis for comparison, but I can't find too many obvious or even subtle flaws. Just some tweaks in the Bosses, maybe along the lines of RTCW, and ID/Activision can improve even further on what's already an excellent effort.
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| 12/11/04 18:41 |
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Saito
GameAmp Staff
Posts: 119
Joined: 05/20/2004
Credibility: 1075 pts
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You make some good points.
For me (after playing through the game several times), I was able to put my finger directly on what (in my sole opinion) would work great in an expansion to increase the difficulty of the monsters, without to much tweaking (would help the scare factor as well).
I don't think that the man method of encountering monsters should be spawning them in front of you, it's just to easy to gun them down. Take the archvile (supposedly the toughest of them) he goes down like a punk, and it has little to do with his combat ability. Specifically you get that pentagram on the ground and the light show so you know where he is, then after he spawns he waves his arms about for a bit, and after that he starts attacking. This method of encounter lets you line up, pick the best weapon, and unload on him before he has a chance to take any action on you.
I think the enemies that weren't spawned, and were already roaming around the levels were much better. Let's face it, a spawned revenant is toast, a free roaming one has a chance to get a shot off at you before you even knew he was there. The same goes for turning a corner and running smack into an enemy, or turning that corner and seeing the circle light up on the floor.
I'm going to go out on a limb and venture a guess that allot of the spawning had to do with this being basically a brand new game genre, nothing like it had been attempted. Hopefully there will be more trickery in the expansion. The moments in Doom 3 where I turned a corner and ran straight into a revenant were classic.
My PC
CPU P4EE Gallitan core socket 478 @ 4.2ghz, Abit IC7-G Max 3, 2 gb PC4000 corsair xms, PC Power and cooling 510 psu, Albatron 6800gt @ ultra, Creative Audigy 2 ZS, Cooler master wave master case, Switech Liquid Cooling, Dual NEC 22 inch CRT, Klipch Pro Media 5.1, Senn HD280 pro, MS 3.0, Steel S&S, logitech elite.
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| 12/11/04 23:23 |
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lach
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Joined: 05/05/2005
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I have been trying to kill the guardian for a few hours now. I try to kill as many seekers as I can I figured I would have to kill 30-40 or so till they stop poping. Then the guardian would be blind. Could I get some help I have spent up to 30 minutes killing seekers. Am I supposed to attack while guardian is reproducing the seekers?
ThANX
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| 05/05/05 08:24 |
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D3M0NB4N3
Posts: 29
Joined: 05/13/2005
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yeh, its not the seekers ur tryin 2 kill, its the guardian, wen he stops 2 spawn sum more, thats wen u shoot, the blu orb, i didnt no that, an i kept firin at him, it took me 2 hours, but i eventually killed him wit splash damage, ( i was usin the roket launchr)
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| 05/14/05 00:15 |
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DeathDoom
Posts: 11
Joined: 09/25/2005
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I have a thought. I thought that the fact of the Spider Mastermind would be in this game, but they had to be smart asses and not put it in there! maybe they forgot about the Spider Mastermind.
If the Spider Mastermind was a boss in this game, heres how it would be: This boss would have 4 chainguns in the center of where the chaingun usually is(from the old Doom but with 4 chainguns instead) and would have a shield of fire around it. and the only way to shut this shield down is to kill 4 or 5 Hellknights, one at a time(may take a while and plus there would ammo constantly popping up in places). And after you do this it would rampage and start to shoot plasma at you(POWERFUL). And you can BLow him away with 15 hits with the rocket launcher.
i like the spider mastermind. I saw concept art of it on a couple sites.
tell me what you think of my idea.
Never fuck with Death, or you will meet your Doom
Evil
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| 09/27/05 20:55 |
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